Toyota 86/Scion FRS sedan!!!

"Justin Young" (jus1029)
10/25/2013 at 10:55 • Filed to: Toyobaru, Toyota 86, Scion FRS

IT'S HAPPENING!!!!!!

(Couldn't find the funnier version.)

DISCUSSION (29)

7:07 > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 10:57

ACTUALLY LIKE

Cixelsyd > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:00

4 doors AND a KERS?

Sign me up!

maximillious > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:01

One with a KERS would be sweeeeet

Casper > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:02

I guess I still just don't understand. It looks OK, but it's basically a completely different car. Why try to make it looks so much like a BRZ? I would have been way happier if they made it a turbo hatch instead.

Bluecold > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:07

Please call it the GT 86 GT.

It's a "Porch-uh" > maximillious
10/25/2013 at 11:07

I'm not sure I'm on board with KERS yet. Especially on the FRS/BRZ which seems to be all about light weight and simplicity.

Jayhawk Jake > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:12

I don't know why people are making such a big deal of this.

An underpowered, undersized, overpriced, sedan? Yeah, sign me right up *rolls eyes*

The various renderings look decently attractive, but where do you guys honestly think the price will end up? You'll be better off with a WRX.

Squid > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:14

Kinja'd!!!

Why Toyota? Why? KERS, is that code for synergy drive? Just go ahead and ruin the best thing you've produced in 20 years.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:19

Isn't this kind of the opposite of what the BRZ/86 is supposed to be? Like a fat Lotus?

SubiSanchez > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:35

I like the rendering but I expect a snug backseat. Perfect for the kids though!

MountainCommand > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:36

hmmmm. I have a feeling toyobaru owners wont be too happy. I wouldnt be.

I feel that it would now loose the appeal as being just a 2door coupe. Now the people who complained about why the toyobaru wasnt practical, will all buy this and will become what the civic has become. Just meh.

I suppose its all about the money.

CobraJoe > Jayhawk Jake
10/25/2013 at 11:40

While I disagree with the idea that a GT-86 sedan is a good idea, I completely agree with the proliferation of small and fun RWD vehicles.

PushToStart > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 11:59

I don't really like this idea. Honestly the GT86/FR-S/BRZ are best left as coupes. I feel like a sedan version is going to end up tarnishing the Toyobaru name and just be viewed to some as another bland sedan.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 12:03

Ridiculous. It essentially already exists, and nobody even remembers that it does.

Kinja'd!!!

Lexus IS 250 RWD 6-speed.

A little more weight, but also a little more power… and roughly the same performance stats…

Barely more money than a BRZ Limited, and a lot more standard features, being a Lexus.

Adding the weight of the extended body and extra doors, if the FRS Sedan still has the low-torque 200hp 2.0 boxer, it is going to be slower than a coupe, or the IS250.

And Subaru already has enough on their plate to build, without building a RWD sedan for Toyota, in addition to the coupe.

Milky > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 12:07

No thanks, doesn't need more weight added. Coupe err'yday.

Kailand09 > Jayhawk Jake
10/25/2013 at 12:15

I've been saying this too, you said it better. Seems really stupid to me.

Kugelblitz > Jayhawk Jake
10/25/2013 at 12:23

I was thinking the same thing. Why not WRX? Unless they plan on competing against them selves in the turbo 4-door segment there must be some twist involved, and I don't think it is adding AWD.

What if they put a juiced up H6 in it? That would make me cry.

Because I would want it.

Jayhawk Jake > Kailand09
10/25/2013 at 12:33

I'm all for a sporty RWD sedan, especially if it's affordable.

I just don't see how this will be affordable.

Typically coupes cost more than sedans, but I don't see how this could happen here since the sedan is based on the coupe.

Would it be fair to say that the other version of a typical car ranges $1000 to $2000 more in MSRP? Think Mazda 3 Hatch/Sedan, Chevy Sonic Hatch/Sedan, Forte Sedan/Koup. In that case, this car will be around $27,000 MSRP.

$27,000 for a 200hp compact sedan? Yeah, no way am I buying that. If it's turbocharged and closer to 300 hp, now we're getting somewhere, but still a bit off the mark.

If you really want a RWD sedan with a manual, there's tons of old BMW's out there.

Jayhawk Jake > Kugelblitz
10/25/2013 at 12:36

The reason you wouldn't get a WRX is fuel economy or style. Literally, those are the only two reasons why I could see somewhere picking the FR-S sedan over a WRX.

If they put a juiced up H6 in it, then the WRX is basically dead, and there's no way Subaru would allow that to happen with the GT-86 platform that they co-developed.

So we will end up with what I described, an underpowered, overpriced compact sedan.

This is not the RWD sedan you're looking for.

EvolutionTen > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
10/25/2013 at 12:36

Except it's really not the same.

For starters they no longer offer a stick in the IS, and the V6 250 makes only 4 more HP and like 20 more lb-ft tq. You can find a used one, but they weren't common, and from what I have read, they also weren't that good.

Secondly the car is a whole six-hundred-fifty pounds heavier than the FR-S, cuz you get all that frilly crap like leather, and moonroofs, and infotainment centers and driving nannies etc.

On top of that the base IS250 starts out at a mere $35,900, cuz you get all that frilly crap like leather, and moonroofs, and infotainment centers and driving nannies etc.

The point of the 86 platform has always been to be light, nimble, cheap, and simple, and not have all that frilly crap like leather, and moonroofs, and infotainment centers and driving nannies etc.

Why be negative when Toyota is finally making a car that people can have fun with and not the usual slog that they've had the last 10+ years?

EvolutionTen > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 12:38

I'm in! I'd also take a shooting brake. The one thing that kept me from buying and FRS a few months ago was the unusable back seat. If I'm getting a strict 2 seater I'll get a used roadster (S2K) and save $.

This is a car I can justify and enjoy. Here's hoping a turbo comes with by the time this actually releases!

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > EvolutionTen
10/25/2013 at 13:09

If they dropped the stick, then it has to be for the new 2014 generation, before that, they did offer a manual on the 250, even though they did not on the 350 or IS-F 5-liter.

Do you honestly think that extending the chassis by at least a foot, if not more, the floors, the chassis rails (probably getting thicker to support the longer wheelbase), two additional doors with side impact beams, more glass, more roof… won't add a few hundred pounds of weight?

The problem is… Toyota isn't making it. SUBARU is making it, when Subaru should be making SUBARUS, not TOYOTAS.

And you may cite detail differences, but in relative terms on the market, an fully-optioned FRS sedan, if gauged by BRZ Limited's equipment and pricing, and the IS250 RWD 6-speed were NOT very far apart.

And IS250 is nowhere. Nobody knows it, nobody buys it, nobody remembers it exists.

If people wanted a modestly-powered RWD manual-gearbox sedan, they would have bought IS250 RWD 6-speed more than they did, and FRS sedan is not going to be a night and day difference, in terms of market acceptance and sales.

The fact that FRS/GT 86/BRZ are coupes is what sells them, despite their power deficit.

People buy sedans on different priorities, and longer-distance, more practical considerations for passengers are part of that… which usually raises the importance of smooth ride over nimble handling, comfort and amenities for longer trips over minimal weight, and power enough to move a vehicle loaded with four humans and their cargo.

FT86 triplets are do-able as a coupe for one, or maybe two people, and for mostly recreational driving.

As a practical sedan… the premise falls down.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
10/25/2013 at 13:22

Except performance and technology wise, the IS falls flat on its face. Everything that was wrong with the first IS kept creeping up to the point of the FRS/BRZ sedan being made in production.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura
10/25/2013 at 13:58

IS performance and FRS/GT86 performance is statistically nearly the same.

Technology-wise, other than interior amenities, they aren't that far off, either…. D-4S injection, multi-link suspension, variable valve timing, RWD, manual gearbox (at least pre-2014 on the IS, anyway)

An FRS sedan is going to be an IS 250 RWD 6-speed, built by Subaru instead, and possibly even more under-powered, because a sedan *will* necessarily weigh more than the coupe, even if not as much as an IS250.

A convertible made more sense than this sedan, and it got binned.

My targa/folding roof 2-seater made more sense, and it probably isn't even on their drawing-board.

As I said before… Sedans sell on different priorities, and what is passable for a FT86 platform coupe, won't be passable as a more practical sedan, and misses the point of what FT86 was built to do.

And Subaru should be building new Subarus, not MORE new Toyota models.

Arandomvirus > Justin Young
10/25/2013 at 14:11

meh

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
10/25/2013 at 18:51

Except the IS was underpowered no matter what statistics tell you. It didn't have enough torque, the chassis wasn't promising and worst of all, the target market for such an endeavour are nowhere near the Gen X/Y c-No, anyone below 50.

Kailand09 > Jayhawk Jake
10/26/2013 at 13:48

Exactly. I have brought this up before talking about the toyobaru:

My mom's 09 camry goes faster... Sure the handling is nowhere near, but I think that speaks volumes. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't $27k when she bought it. Maybe around the same.

Really though, if you build a sedan FRS, shouldn't that just be a corolla?

EvolutionTen > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
10/28/2013 at 11:58

Again, you're not really comparing apples to apples.

Just because a loaded up FRS might be almost like 5000$ cheaper than a base-burger IS250, doesn't mean they're essentially the same car. It'd be like saying a GLI is useless, because a loaded up one is $32,000 and you can get a base A4 for $36,000. It's just not the same thing, mainly for all the reasons I mentioned before.

I would be a buyer on the FRS because of it's great handling dynamics, my lack of interest in luxury/features, and easy modability. I loved the FRS when I drove it, and it was cheap as dirt, but the back seats were 100% unusable, so I went with my current car, a 2008 Evo X. I need to be able to DD my Toyobaru, and I can't fit a kid in the back in current form.

There is no reason why a sedan would cost drastically more, most 2dr-4dr car platforms manage to do it relatively cheap, an GTI 2dr to 4dr only costs a difference of like $800. Not to mention, I have no need for all the luxury in the Lexus, but I do need a back seat. If they can manage to make this car with a decent size under $26,000, what's not to love?

My Autocross yesterday had 3 Toyobarus, out of maybe 60 entrants. All of them kicked ass, like they were made to be there. There was not one Lexus there, because they don't belong there. They would not do well, and they weren't meant to.

I'm sorry you don't see the purpose of this car, but there are plenty of us ready to get on board with more practical enthusiast cars, in any form.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > EvolutionTen
10/28/2013 at 14:38

My point is... they are both Apples, even if one is a Fuji, and the other is a Granny Smith.

They are both RWD 4-door sedans with the same performance stats, and both likely are so compact, that the rear seats might as well be un-useable, and the IS may has well always have been a coupe, and leave the GS for the sedan buyers, with proper rear cabin volume.

A FT86 based sedan would be CLOSER to an IS250, in structure, purpose, and performance than a FWD GLI Jetta, and an AWD longitudinal A4.

The reason there are no IS lexuses at autocross, is because they don't sell. Nobody has them ANYWAY, let alone bringing them to an autocross.

They don't sell, because they don't meet what most people want when they shop for sedans, like ES, GS, and LS, and every other sedan.

A BRZ sedan won't either, nor will a toyota/scion badged variant, even if it is 5-10K less expensive somehow, and being a stripper, without amenities doesn't HELP, it HURTS sedan sales.

You may be one, but there are few others that occupy the venn diagram in both circles of wanting a sedan for practical space, but don't want amenities and a more comfortable size for the occupants of that space.

RX8 didn't pull it off, either, and it was neither a touring car or practical daily or distance driver, but it also was larger, heavier than a 2-door coupe would have been, and not as good looking as a coupe. Compromised practicality AND compromised automotive appeal, the worst of both worlds.

And if you think increasing the interior volume significantly won't add material weight to the larger body to envelop that volume, you aren't allowing yourself to be objective... And that is before the lack of torque in the FA2o becomes even more of a deficit with that additional weight, both unloaded, and especially with four people on board.

FRS/GT 86/BRZ Sell because they are coupes. They are lighter, in part, because they are coupes. They get away with being less powerful, because they are lighter, more attractive looking cars, because they are coupes.

They are at Autocross because they are coupes.

I would bet than a VAST majority of the vehicles that were at that autocross, and had 4 side doors, like your EVO, are there because they are more powerful than an FT86 triplet car, AND that there is no equivalent coupe alternative to it.... otherwise given a pairing of equivalent coupe and sedan, the coupe would be favored for motorsport events.